Curse

Axel Zinfandel · May 14, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

My post in a different thread raised a question I want to ask people publically..

BUT FIRST A DISCLAIMER: I am talking PvE only, and keep your imbagon/meta opinions in the closet. None of this "no because I have imbagon" stuff.

I remember one of Anet's reasons behind not buffing the motivation line -too- much is that backline, 80 armor characters shouldn't have that much power.
Would you take a nerf to paragon's armor (from say 80 to 70) if it meant better and more widely usable skills in command and Motivation?

If not (or even if), What nerfs do YOU think would be fair enough to make to balance paragons if they did change the overall functionality of paragon skills in PvE?

By overall functionality, I am referring MAINLY to a lot of the skills that are useless with AI and used tactically in PvP (most of the IMS skills), the recharge of a lot of the widely usable motivation chants, and skills that are too 'specific' in PvE to be worth it ([Lyric of Zeal for instance, because heroes/henches, and even players rarely use signets save mesmers/necros).

It's come to my understanding that what makes it difficult with Dervishes and Paragons is they don't have as many skills as the base and Factions professions, so the skills that they DO have should tend to be generally usable. Dervishes accomplish this very well, whereas paragons tend to lack.

JoeKnowMo · May 14, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I'd welcome the nerf if it meant more variety in para builds instead of imbagon 24/7.

The problem with paras, imo, that makes balancing them tough, is that they affect the entire party with shouts/chants. An alternative would be to make most chants/shouts affect target ally and nearby allies.

Although this would probably reduce the dps of paras, it would allow for more intelligent play instead of spamming shouts/chants upon recharge. If chants/shouts affect only target and nearby allies, their power could be increased and their recharge could be reduced. Due to their limited effect, targeted chants/shouts could affect the next 1-3 skills/attacks/signets/etc. Targeted chants could also heal or buff for bigger numbers.

As far as the specialized shouts/chants go (lyrics, choruses) I would just buff their overall effect or duration or number of skills affected along with the above change.

For example:
Lyric of zeal - For 15s, target and nearby allies gain 1..5 energy for the next 1..3 signets that they use.
Never Surrender - (5e, 10s recharge) For 10s, target and nearby allies gain +1..5 health regeneration (regardless of health level).
Ballad of Restoration (10e, 10s recharge) For 10s, target and nearby allies gain 15..63 health the next 1..3 times they take damage.

Leadership would need to be tweaked so that you gain 1..5 energy for the first ally targeted by your shout/chant and +1e for every ally after that capped by your leadership attribute.

Luminarus · May 15, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Its PvE they could revert all paragon nerfs since NF release and they wouldnt be any more OP then they are currently, so I dont get what the big whoop is?

They also did essentially get their armor nerfed to 60, through [Aggressive Refrain]. Even in pvp, its just the power of unremovable party wide buffs that causes the problem.

Lishy · May 15, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

"The Power is Yours!" (PvE)
Increased duration to 1...5 seconds. Increased regeneration to 0..2..3

Axel Zinfandel · May 15, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

"The Power is Yours!" (PvE)
Increased duration to 1...5 seconds. Increased regeneration to 0..2..3

I had a perfect idea for this skill a while back

"The Power is Yours!" (PvE)

for 1..5..6 seconds, Allies within earshot gain 0...1...1 Energy regeneration. This skill stacks up to 3 times

Reverend Dr · May 15, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

The biggest problem is chant stacking.

If running one paragon becomes viable(a standard build, not imbagon), then running more will end up being overpowered.

From that viewpoint it doesn't really matter if the paragons have 80 armor 60 armor or 20 armor.

What the paragon needs (all of the expansion classes) is what it won't get, a complete redesign.

smilingscar · May 15, 2009, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

The biggest problem is chant stacking.

How about this then, make all paragon chants unstackable and adjust leadership accordingly:

"Leadership: For every 5 ranks of leadership your shouts and chants may stack with one additional shout or chant (to a maximum of three)." (would 6 be better than 5? not sure...)

I think energy gain should be addressed as well, it's been the source of too many nerfs. I suggest making Leadership like expertise, reducing the energy cost of shouts and chants, and then providing energy when a shout or chant ends prematurely. This would serve as a way of rewarding certain shouts or chants for doing their job and triggering effects.

Though I do like the idea to make shouts targeted AoE effects. That might be better for promoting active play.

Bill Clinton · May 15, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

What the paragon needs (all of the expansion classes) is what it won't get, a complete redesign.

This is true. The problem is this: The idea of the paragon was that they were the 'leaders' when Anet developed them they had the idea that each team would have one paragon as the leader who used shouts that would buff the entire party, which was nice.
But then came the abuse, and people formed 8-man paragon teams which dominated the game. So there were nerfs. Suddenly you needed two paragons for them to be as vialable as before (Da chainers, for example). And then there were more nerfs, and you needed three. Now the only way for them to be any good is to have teams full of them, and even them people feel that is over powered.

So what needs to happen is a redisgn, but only a small one. They should play off of the original idea that paragons are the leaders. Change leadership to include something like "Shouts and chants fail on allies for as long as there is another paragon in the party with higher or equal leadership as you". The idea would be that your commands and shouts fall on deaf ears if you are not the greatest leader in the party. It also has a great purpose for balance, it would secure a place for paragons in the party again (but only one), where their skills can have longer durations and greater effects, as originaly intended. Also note that additional paragons may still be helpfull. You could have a 'leader' paragon in the team along with a spear chucker, or echoer/finale paragon - without being over powered. Its not as though teams can only have one paragon full-stop.

Its a great idea, I used to wish Anet would do it. But we're beyond that now, I fear.

AtomicMew · May 16, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Paragons are actually quite weak in PvE besides the imbagon, ofc. If A.net wants to see variety in paragon builds, they first need to nerf SY! somehow.

Secondly, unstrippable doesnt mean crap in PvE since mobs don't know priority, anyway. You're still taking monk buffs and other enchantments and those get stripped just like everyone else. Also, the damage output of a paragon is pretty weak. I'd estimate it's ~1/3 of compared to MS/DB.

Lishy · May 16, 2009, 07:11 PM // 19:11

traversc, Ms/DB is one of the worst things to compare to, by the way. It has some of the biggest single target output in the game.
The damage per 10 seconds is insane. If Paragon has 1/3 of it, then quite frankly, that's a good thing!

Frisian · Jun 14, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

So what needs to happen is a redisgn, but only a small one. They should play off of the original idea that paragons are the leaders. Change leadership to include something like "Shouts and chants fail on allies for as long as there is another paragon in the party with higher or equal leadership as you". The idea would be that your commands and shouts fall on deaf ears if you are not the greatest leader in the party. It also has a great purpose for balance, it would secure a place for paragons in the party again (but only one), where their skills can have longer durations and greater effects, as originaly intended. Also note that additional paragons may still be helpfull. You could have a 'leader' paragon in the team along with a spear chucker, or echoer/finale paragon - without being over powered. Its not as though teams can only have one paragon full-stop.

Its a great idea, I used to wish Anet would do it. But we're beyond that now, I fear.

That idea is great, really.